tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13117784560142173082024-03-13T11:37:53.062-07:00Forgive __________This discussion site supports forgivegeorge.com, an experimental project that gives people the choice to forgive George Bush and/or someone or something else.Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-89423270256920308622009-01-18T21:19:00.000-08:002009-01-20T10:46:08.780-08:00Why forgive George?<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhMTC3xhbKhfpNCktFJJmcDGqlSXMKv8q0g-f5VJ2TVm_CRgEqkjQmpQHyGneJTpr0i68aYlz05lub2arUykfjl6Hp-81_RAZMgnzOrg5g6TQKtUZ53Joap9FVYBB1AJEoYSmiak6WaIdo/s1600-h/IMG_0142.JPG"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 150px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhMTC3xhbKhfpNCktFJJmcDGqlSXMKv8q0g-f5VJ2TVm_CRgEqkjQmpQHyGneJTpr0i68aYlz05lub2arUykfjl6Hp-81_RAZMgnzOrg5g6TQKtUZ53Joap9FVYBB1AJEoYSmiak6WaIdo/s200/IMG_0142.JPG" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5293449059488927698" border="0" /></a><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjDlwtf91ScD1OGZuIwE-CzJH-aI6SUIesimB21Znl671JZedNDjN1kGomQNVgEfkyMDC12VmbaOW4mE1bY1ne6hvkl5xw-uA5cPs0BExIQ1k0lf-LuNh73JzJYG_40CFH9sBob8ku8wsU/s1600-h/Picture+4.png"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 142px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjDlwtf91ScD1OGZuIwE-CzJH-aI6SUIesimB21Znl671JZedNDjN1kGomQNVgEfkyMDC12VmbaOW4mE1bY1ne6hvkl5xw-uA5cPs0BExIQ1k0lf-LuNh73JzJYG_40CFH9sBob8ku8wsU/s200/Picture+4.png" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5292894782296903026" border="0" /></a><br /><br />Stephen Giem and I made <a href="http://www.forgivegeorge.com/">forgivegeorge.com</a> as an experiment in encouraging thought and discussion about forgiveness and its role in moving us forward.<br /><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEheO55EkdvvaneI88JboY1-Atz2AsJ9d8v-jTJK6VW4v1ZNno5BIKxy5_y8dgnLYmg3uu2_oPqhjn5sogVvBc2LuF5bbwqNEjx2aUSLlITPGEyJBG1exCC4ThBhsSVfd36-L5tFUw0NQXU/s1600-h/Picture+7.png"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 150px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEheO55EkdvvaneI88JboY1-Atz2AsJ9d8v-jTJK6VW4v1ZNno5BIKxy5_y8dgnLYmg3uu2_oPqhjn5sogVvBc2LuF5bbwqNEjx2aUSLlITPGEyJBG1exCC4ThBhsSVfd36-L5tFUw0NQXU/s200/Picture+7.png" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5292894780179386226" border="0" /></a><br /><br />We live in Portland, Oregon, so there's a lot of visible anger about Bush. Like most people, I've experienced a lot of righteous anger in my life. It's never felt good, and I have always felt better when I have forgiven.<br /><br />In the God-centered culture of the American South, where I grew up and lived for many years, this is not a particularly radical concept, the idea of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness">forgiveness</a>. Most southerners are familiar with this exchange from the Gospel of Matthew:<br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);font-family:courier new;" >Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”</span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);font-family:courier new;" ><br /><br />“No!” Jesus replied, “seventy times seven!” </span><br /><br />In Portland it has the opposite effect to use the Bible as basis of support for a concept, so instead I'd point to Barack Obama. As he said yesterday in Baltimore, on his whistle-stop trip to his inauguration:<br /><br /><span style="font-family:courier new;"> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">What's required is a new declaration of independence, not just in our nation, but in our own lives, our own hearts - from ideology and small thinking, prejudice and bigotry and narrow interests - an appeal not to our easy instincts but to our better angels.</span></span><br /><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);font-family:courier new;" ><br />...if we could just recognize ourselves in one another and bring everyone together - Democrats, Republicans, and Independents, north, south, east and west, black, white, Latino, Asian, and Native American, gay, straight, disabled, not - then not only would we restore opportunity in places that yearned for both, but maybe, just maybe, we might perfect our union in the process.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-family:georgia;">I'm just so tired of hating the other side, whatever side that happens to be. I know we will only make progress as a country when we come together and reach a shared consensus on <a href="http://studiojelly.blogspot.com/2009/01/security-of-insecurity.html">what's important to us</a>.</span> <span style="font-family:georgia;"><br /></span><br /><span style="font-family:georgia;">Before the string-music begins, let me tell you that Stephen and I found ample evidence that we have a ways to go before we are all together on this. </span>We launched the site during Christmas week, thinking it would be a good time for reflection on these issues. The site spread quickly, with thousands of visitors from all over the world. In addition to many thoughtful acts of forgiveness, there was a constant stream of unrepentant anger.<br /><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj3cGYApeBqDe7VwjsnCvT5m8WIn6bUMuW6p2Z1Lc2DTfgIPVlGAmCo8naw2eq7XmdTOoy-hKrRjZbDL7kBmyI9TW9DQsyfkNgybBgsFrY8YjAgK2fxQUeEsKaZkpTkWLamqI52aJ1S6pg/s1600-h/Picture+20.png"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 74px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj3cGYApeBqDe7VwjsnCvT5m8WIn6bUMuW6p2Z1Lc2DTfgIPVlGAmCo8naw2eq7XmdTOoy-hKrRjZbDL7kBmyI9TW9DQsyfkNgybBgsFrY8YjAgK2fxQUeEsKaZkpTkWLamqI52aJ1S6pg/s200/Picture+20.png" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5292894777882600466" border="0" /></a><br /><br />And, as the posts on this blog show, many people felt that forgiveness implied letting President Bush off the hook for all that he's done. Others felt too victimized or raw to be able to forgive yet. Perhaps we need something like a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_%28South_Africa%29">Truth and Reconciliation Commission</a>, like they had in South Africa to deal with the crimes perpetrated under the Apartheid regime?<br /><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhzcaVWtdCrVayp6f-uESElunEGghc9jvJR5WfqNh5NLS8UKqlX6v8MGV191FtjEN0Zj6Gfh_3xDtwAWcPwILl09TT5CNitPisbA5t20RyHlM-BsAfgM9r5fAqXn1JPsFWblTv0nw1RyMs/s1600-h/Picture+10.png"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 162px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhzcaVWtdCrVayp6f-uESElunEGghc9jvJR5WfqNh5NLS8UKqlX6v8MGV191FtjEN0Zj6Gfh_3xDtwAWcPwILl09TT5CNitPisbA5t20RyHlM-BsAfgM9r5fAqXn1JPsFWblTv0nw1RyMs/s200/Picture+10.png" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5292894779315233122" border="0" /></a><br /><br />Thanks for your participation and interest in this project. Stephen and I welcome your comments, either on this blog or by email.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />me@jellyhelm.com<br />stephen.giem@wk12.comUnknownnoreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-8517831952215999732009-01-18T13:18:00.001-08:002009-01-18T23:55:17.273-08:00From the archive<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj5uomp_wncqr84tBactK3ujxoMuw35l8prMj3lfMHRoeLyFbhfGcZqTXa4WPlT0deCQhi0q7eMbTNrclu4km1ErVYCFddcaKoBkPdX7E7ZwOEB4FJ77LrUxW5bi6hXRnDE51jsVWdzd6w/s1600-h/Picture+12.png"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 172px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj5uomp_wncqr84tBactK3ujxoMuw35l8prMj3lfMHRoeLyFbhfGcZqTXa4WPlT0deCQhi0q7eMbTNrclu4km1ErVYCFddcaKoBkPdX7E7ZwOEB4FJ77LrUxW5bi6hXRnDE51jsVWdzd6w/s200/Picture+12.png" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5292746750700740034" border="0" /></a><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1uQ6eQlqwE6sWBlLKYHb_9Q7Wou0lhNIkgI5Sw8GVwOJ2Mkrl2jOmlAIFPSpbhG7hW_cneN756K59y-Y4Md8dvblNJ0P6gkEsbr11O6i_bwXlTuhcJ59DJGWrmwLp7Zu3v1rinWJ-OQg/s1600-h/Picture+9.png"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 172px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1uQ6eQlqwE6sWBlLKYHb_9Q7Wou0lhNIkgI5Sw8GVwOJ2Mkrl2jOmlAIFPSpbhG7hW_cneN756K59y-Y4Md8dvblNJ0P6gkEsbr11O6i_bwXlTuhcJ59DJGWrmwLp7Zu3v1rinWJ-OQg/s200/Picture+9.png" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5292746747258730098" border="0" /></a><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjDdrll0xl8_zHt0KS5VHVKdY_HXhLqa-YVN1xudryArcxyspR-bnGXcx3-R-PbLKN8cFHaX0XQxslYTpLzTc7zBULv-sT5DF2UrTmuJ7_JSraN06p_L55vFhB_vIQpEcp9vJWyh4y_DUI/s1600-h/Picture+6.png"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 172px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjDdrll0xl8_zHt0KS5VHVKdY_HXhLqa-YVN1xudryArcxyspR-bnGXcx3-R-PbLKN8cFHaX0XQxslYTpLzTc7zBULv-sT5DF2UrTmuJ7_JSraN06p_L55vFhB_vIQpEcp9vJWyh4y_DUI/s200/Picture+6.png" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5292746742311973666" border="0" /></a><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxCnEt4wtwi6DIyVdmLZFTA7afGVPBrCoFrAesZoBgNujlC1Q-2-c2WShJ-QuS18Y-KFb5jP0QQ6AHrHe4WGh1PBE8MMxXcy2AtPw9B0ce2T4Xis5D34BPwyYlxBUrxOFDj8CL9hn61Jw/s1600-h/Picture+4.png"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 172px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxCnEt4wtwi6DIyVdmLZFTA7afGVPBrCoFrAesZoBgNujlC1Q-2-c2WShJ-QuS18Y-KFb5jP0QQ6AHrHe4WGh1PBE8MMxXcy2AtPw9B0ce2T4Xis5D34BPwyYlxBUrxOFDj8CL9hn61Jw/s200/Picture+4.png" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5292746739919223234" border="0" /></a><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgK7I2qecRVQDJe1PkD-lnw2810TjEsNARyIoTXGmnMz8e3nAvZ5OiddDqm4LX5KnJT1q0Axwn3DWDCt3I-uWfND23RRb3uLkkqoQnfZh5hBC0CvnS-wa1PnOK7pH8e5ImYO61nOxEg2pU/s1600-h/Picture+3.png"><img style="cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 172px;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgK7I2qecRVQDJe1PkD-lnw2810TjEsNARyIoTXGmnMz8e3nAvZ5OiddDqm4LX5KnJT1q0Axwn3DWDCt3I-uWfND23RRb3uLkkqoQnfZh5hBC0CvnS-wa1PnOK7pH8e5ImYO61nOxEg2pU/s200/Picture+3.png" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5292746735809063298" border="0" /></a><br /><br />Hundreds more to click through <a href="http://www.forgivegeorge.com/view.php">here</a>.Unknownnoreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-56861619662188151842009-01-18T13:08:00.001-08:002009-01-18T13:08:54.029-08:00Katie says:I can't do it, dude.<br /><br />I want to. He found himself in a situation greater than that which he was equipped to deal with, and that's not necessarily his fault. I can empathize.<br /><br />But.<br /><br />Forgiving someone who doesn't have the self-awareness to ask for forgiveness, to know he's screwed up (and screwed us up), sounds a lot like being taken advantage of, and I gave that up for lent in 2003.<br /><br />Maybe I'm just not ready. Give me time.Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-84886736156510335642009-01-18T13:07:00.001-08:002009-01-18T13:07:56.985-08:00Glenda says:<span style="font-size: 14px;">Well.....maybe.<br /><br />I am wondering what it would be like to ask forgiveness of the Iraqis or from prisoners tortured.<br />Maybe forgiveness comes after a time for truth and reconciliation.<div class="Ih2E3d"><br /></div></span>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-65530104384617109592009-01-18T13:06:00.001-08:002009-01-18T13:06:55.017-08:00David says:<span style="font-family:Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I have to confess I am not ready to forgive GB yet. While I am quite ready to move on, there is something about keeping his crimes in the public consciousness that will serve us all well as a reminder of what’s up in our fair land (even if he never ‘gets’ it).<br /><br />As Oregon’s own William Stafford once wrote,<br /><br />For it is important that awake people be awake,<br />or a breaking line may discourage them back to sleep;<br />the signals we give — yes or no, or maybe —<br />should be clear: the darkness around us is deep.<br /><br />Anyway, a provocative and important query.</span></span>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-76897737180624954542009-01-18T13:05:00.001-08:002009-01-18T13:05:33.694-08:00John says:Still working on forgiving George - enormous damage done to so many people by his war.Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-91036561163432894112009-01-18T13:04:00.001-08:002009-01-18T13:04:27.737-08:00Kathleen says:<span style="font-family:Verdana;">I love this idea. Not sure I genuinely feel ready to forgive Mr. Bush, but maybe it’s like the bit about “smile and happiness will follow”?</span>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-82568039181477852912009-01-18T13:01:00.002-08:002009-01-18T13:02:50.320-08:00P says:<div><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:85%;">I have been thinking about this for several days and it brought to mind something that happened a few years ago. A relative who went to some rehab meetings wrote to friends and family asking for forgiveness of past deeds (really small transgressions). I remember feeling uncomfortable in that role because, even though I didn't like the things she did, I didn't want to have the power of absolution. That is for a higher power, if there is one.. I did write her an encouraging letter and our relationship has moved ahead in a better way.<br /><br /></span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:85%;">In Bush's and Cheney's case and also many others in their administration, there has been no recognition of the destruction they have wrought - and the effect on people who are the most vulnerable around the world. I am pretty sure they are not looking for forgiveness since they are still proud of the accomplishments of their time in office and have in fact been on a "legacy campaign" to promote it.<br /><br />Forgiveness is not going to come from me but I would hope that accountability in the form of a criminal trial will show the world that we recognize what this country has done. </span></div><br /><div><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:85%;">Good job on promoting the dialogue!</span></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-47442479854063840602009-01-18T13:01:00.001-08:002009-01-18T13:01:18.310-08:00Eric says:Love this idea.Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1311778456014217308.post-10939144509938216612009-01-18T12:55:00.000-08:002009-01-18T12:56:49.622-08:00Jim says:<div><span style="font-family:Arial;">I don't forgive George Bush. </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;"><br />When I think about the illegal Iraq war, my thoughts</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">seem to always bring up images of innocent </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">Iraqi children being killed and maimed by the thousands.</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">I can clearly visualize a TV newscast I saw several </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">years ago showing a terrified little Israeli boy crouching</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">down behind his father who was peering around the </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">corner of a building (with one arm behind him holding</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">onto his boy) during a fire fight with members of a PLO faction.</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">The look of horror on the little </span><span style="font-family:Arial;">boy's face was unforgettable. The number </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">of Iraqi children </span><span style="font-family:Arial;">and </span><span style="font-family:Arial;">adults killed number over a hundred thousand </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">by </span><span style="font-family:Arial;">some accounts. And then you need to add the number of people</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">wounded physically and emotionally, and those displaced</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">and ruined financially. And .... add to this our own deaths and casualties.</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">This is enough for me not to forgive George</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">Bush. Bush and his cohorts "cooked the books" to </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">wage the first ever U.S. pre-emptive war, not even caring whether </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">or not Saddam </span><span style="font-family:Arial;">possessed weapons of mass destruction.</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">Bush and his team should be prosecuted for war crimes.</span></div> <div> </div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">You and I and most Americans are well aware of the rest of </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">the "accomplishments" - to cite just a few: arresting and detaining</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">terrorist suspects (most of whom are innocent); torture; wrecking the </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">environment; wrecking the economy; awarding government positions</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">based upon party loyalty instead of competence; not being able to</span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">handle a crisis (Katrina); incurring record budget deficits;selling out to </span></div> <div><span style="font-family:Arial;">special interests; harming our relationships with other countries.</span></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0